How can leaders safeguard their team’s productivity and maintain workplace civility during turbulent times? This conversation with Jim Link, CHRO for SHRM, explores strategies to build resilience, foster stability, and create cultures that withstand stress from external social, political, and technological upheaval. In this episode, you’ll learn: - Why leadership clarity and workplace structure matter now more than ever - How to lead with empathy while navigating conflict and complexity - Four cultural pillars that sustain teams through uncertainty
How can leaders safeguard their team’s productivity and maintain workplace civility during turbulent times? This conversation with Jim Link, CHRO for SHRM, explores strategies to build resilience, foster stability, and create cultures that withstand stress from external social, political, and technological upheaval.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
Resources from this week’s episode –
SHRM Civility Index, Q1 2025 Results: https://www.shrm.org/content/dam/en/shrm/topics-tools/topics/civility/starter-kit/shrm-q1-2025-civility-index-abstract.pdf
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Jerry: I am Jerry Won. Welcome to Tomorrowist, where we explore the trend shaping the future of work. living in a time when disruption feels constant. Social issues, political polarization, economic uncertainty, rapidly advancing technology. not just happening around us, it's happening at work. In the first quarter of 2025, SHRM found that high anxiety. About the future of US society is fueling workplace incivility costing businesses over $1.3 billion in lost productivity every day. [00:01:00] leaders, the challenge is clear. How do you keep teams productive and civil in the midst of disruptive times? Here to impact? This is Jim Link, chief Human Resources Officer at SHRM. Jim, welcome to Tomorrowist.
Jim: Thank you, Jerry. It's a pleasure to be with you here today.
Jerry: We're living in a time of intense social, political, and technological disruption. How do you see the stress of those changes impacting work workers and the workplace?
Jim: Well, you know, Jerry, the answer to that question is really easy. It's impacting in every way, every day, and there are so many things that are happening now across our, our broader socioeconomic and social sociopolitical environments that, of course, these things are translating down into the workplace.
There we're seeing them in impacting how people think about the way they work every day, how they're thinking about the work and its association with their home. Uh, and there, there are comm broader communities, and I think more specifically workers are thinking about the future because the things that we're [00:02:00] experiencing now are not necessarily conducive to what we've experienced in the past.
And so that creates a conflict. And that conflict in particular is something that, that workers have to learn how to navigate and manage through for the betterment of both themselves, their own sense of wellbeing, and also their productivity and efficiency and effectiveness at work.
Jerry: You know, you make a good point because I think, you know, particularly in the post pandemic era, the line between work and personal life has been blurred forever. And it overlaps. And, you know, we, we, we see the, the comical interpretation of it on shows like. Severance where you can literally leave everything at the door when you check in the work.
But that's not the reality that we live in. many of us continue to work from home. Uh, many of us share more about our personal lives, our families, our, our thoughts with colleagues as they turn into friends and, and more. And so, you know, these conversations are also evolving at a rapid pace and, and.
Ways that we have ever seen and so how can leaders keep the current events, you know, for politics, global [00:03:00] crises, from becoming a distraction in the workplace without appearing, detached or unsympathetic?
Jim: Yeah, the first thing to do is simplify and clarify because anything that happens in the workplace, believe it or not, can often be viewed as a refuge, A place where people come, where that there is some sense of order, some sense of expectation, some sense of timeliness. There's structure to it, and those types of things are not.
Things that we're seeing right now in our broader society. It matter of fact, the opposite is true. It appears to be unstructured and chaotic and unplanned and perhaps even unpurposeful, uh, for many people. So think of work as a place. Well, that you can come to get something done and something accomplished.
So we encourage managers and leaders to take advantage of that by, by being very clear about what the expectations are. And those can be expectations for that day, for that week, for that month, or even that year. But that [00:04:00] act of providing structure. As simple and as clear way as you possibly can, has the benefit of providing guidance and stability to a workforce that might otherwise be distracted by what's going on in the broader world around them.
Jerry: You know, it, it's a wonderful point, and, you know, we, we process things differently and depending on who
you are, where you are, what you've been through, what your family looks like, you know, we, we process what's happening around us differently. Obviously with the internet, we get news faster than we ever have.
We are exposed to more things. Um, and, and there's certainly no shortage of opinions on the internet of how people view these things and, and how we are taught to think. Uh, and, and so that results in people coming to work. And again, work isn't just a physical place anymore, but mentally, psychologically, emotionally, people are coming from different places. Um, what, what are your thoughts on, on how leaders can promote. Workplace ability when a variety of employees are, are coming with very different experiences and often deeply personal [00:05:00] ones, uh, reactions to what's happening in in the world.
Jim: Yeah, well, my answer to that is really tied to one of the central tenets of effective leadership, and that is, uh, an empathetic leadership style. Uh, so, so when people walk in off the street to work every day in the way that, that you have described, you're absolutely right. Uh, Jerry, they bring with them everything that, that is the lived moment for them, uh, from the time that they got home the night before.
They're, they're walking into an environment now where they're bringing the last hours with them. That's why workplaces need to be receptive and open and flexible and agile, and collaborative. And cooperative, and a whole other list of words that are descriptive of what effective work cultures look like.
So when I think about this more broadly, I almost envision what an effective workplace should look like. As, as a, if you can work with me on the imagery here, uh, a four-legged stool and [00:06:00] one leg of that stool is certainly a culture I. Learning because people come into an environment where that their leaders are every day where that their coworkers are every day.
They want to, generally, they want to do a good job, but they are even more engaged and more excited if they feel like they have the opportunity to develop a skill or a competency or a capability. So that culture of learning is the first important leg in that stool of what that workplace should look like.
If you have a culture of learning, the second leg of that stool is easier to generate, which is a culture of innovation. Uh, learning creates innovative and inquisitive minds. And those inquisitive minds, guess what? They generate innovation, uh, in an organization. And we all know that because of many of the things you've already mentioned, Jerry, about the speed of technology and capability.
These days. Innovation is going to win the game. Uh, at the, at the end of the day. So that's the second leg is a culture of innovation. [00:07:00] The third leg of that stool in which you have learning and, and, uh, the innovation is certainly to do something with that. And that is a culture of collaboration, right? You have all this competency and all this capability now, so why not collaborate with that?
And then of course, no workplace is complete. Without focusing on and enhancing a culture of inclusion. So if you think of those four things as a four-legged stool, we know what happens if you sit upon a stool that's, that has one leg longer or shorter than the other, right? You feel unbalanced. But let's assume for a moment in this hypothetical example that you're an employee setting upon that stool where those four cultural components are clearly in place.
Well, guess what? My belief is that the employee sitting upon that stool actually feels like they're working in a culture of care. And nothing can be more important right now in our society and in our environment, in our workplaces, and in our communities, [00:08:00] than portraying, demonstrating, and living every day a culture of care for yourself, for your family, for your coworkers, for your community, and for those that you care about.
So to me, that's what leaders should be going after. They should be thinking about that four legged stool all the time, because if they get that right, those employees sitting upon that stool are going to know where they work, in a place where that they're valued, where they're appreciated, where there's a purpose and where there culture of care gives them the wherewithal, the stamina to get through what el, whatever else they might be bringing into work every day with them.
Jerry: Well, let's talk about that care, right? Because I think it is a very important topic and I think it's also something that we've seen about care being brought into the workplace, right? So decades ago, and, and we can also generalize about the past, it was tough it out, this is work. You know, leave that stuff at the door.
And then we've introduced, you know, for, uh, for, for good overall, I believe, you know, care [00:09:00] in forms of, you know, mental health resources or, or time away and in different things that have been, you know, introduced. And so. where's the right balance? Right? Where's the boundary or how can leaders think about, uh, balancing helping employees manage their stress, staying focused, uh, without becoming the therapist or without becoming, you know, something so disruptive, uh, to the workplace?
How, how can leaders think about that balance?
Jim: Uh, I think there are two or three ways to think about that. And the most important, even primary way, uh, leaders should respond in these types of situations is to role model the behavior that they wish to see in their employees. You know, if you, for example, if you have a supervisor, a leader, a manager in an organization, uh, that's full of drama every day, then.
Guess what they're gonna expect? The, the, the folks gonna work on that are, who are working on that team are gonna believe that it's okay to bring that drama into, into the workplace every day. Right? But if you're a leader who doesn't wanna manage the drama, you just wanna manage the, the value and the benefit of the employee [00:10:00] and the outcome of, of, of that particular employee's situation and employees productivity, then you're focused on that.
So you're number one. Role modeling the behavior that you wish to see in others, particularly those who work with you. The second thing I think is vitally important is to understand that different types of situations require different types of leadership skill and capability. It's called situational leadership, and the person that walked out the door last night may not be the same person who works for you, who walks in the door that morning.
You need to be aware of that, and you need to be prepared to adjust your own approach, your own feelings, your own behaviors to, reflect what it is that that particular person might be bringing into work on that particular day at that particular time. So that situational awareness and situational realization that.
Things are not the same in anyone's life on any given day. From day to day is a big step in that [00:11:00] process. And then finally, the third thing I think is vitally important, is encouraging employees to utilize the resources which are available to them in the workplace. You're right, Jerry, you mentioned, uh, that things have dramatically and radically changed, particularly since the onset of, of the COVID pandemic five years ago.
Clearly employers recognized, uh, shortly into that, that the human capability of what people were able to do was now taking new forms, exciting new forms. We learned that the new definitions of flexibility and agility. We learned new definitions of how, when, where, and why work can get done and by whom all of those things are values, which organizations have now incorporated in different ways into their organizations.
If we got nothing else out of that time period, we learned very quickly that human beings and the skills, competencies, and capabilities that they bring into a workplace every day are not a commodity.
Jerry: Hmm.
Jim: They are a [00:12:00] valued, needed resource for organizations to thrive and be successful. And I honestly, I mean, there were so many horrible, terrible things that happened during the pandemic, but that's a good thing that came out of that very trying difficult time period for all of us, was the realization that people and their skills are unique, valuable, and needed for the success of society and for the workplace.
Jerry: managers. Supervisors. You know, people in the middle of the org chart often tasked with this impossible. Dichotomy of dealing with things themselves, the organization priorities at the forefront, but also helping their teams manage. And I, if, if you are one of these people, we, we feel for you, we, we've been there and it's you, you're sandwiched in between not letting your personal views or emotions dictate your actions as the manager. in balancing, and not to say that they're at odds, but sometimes they can [00:13:00] feel like odds of what is better for, or the important for the, uh, company or the organization today versus caring for the employee. what's the advice there for the people who feel sandwiched or being pulled on opposite ends to do the right thing and still, uh, maintain their position or, or feel like they're being valued? Um, it, it can feel like they're being pulled in a number of different directions there.
Jim: Well, I'm one of those people who believes that the, the truth shall be said. So let's, let's start with that. Uh, you are 100% right. Those folks are, those folks are in the middle. They are sandwiched. It's the very definition of middle management, right? You are somewhere in there trying to navigate those who, folks who work with.
You, uh, with those people for whom you work. And that's a, it, it's a difficult place, but that place is also a place of learning and clarity. And it's where people who really have significant leadership [00:14:00] capability begin to get noticed and be seen because they learn through trial and error, through mistakes and successes.
They learn how to navigate an. Keep all things that need to to happen in an organization happening while dealing with those things that could potentially prohibit things from happening. Those are usually people, processes, or as I like to say it, it's talent, tech, and leadership. Those are the three things, right, that are vitally important that those middle managers learn how to navigate.
Now, I'm a person who believes that the best organizations. Are throwing all kinds of resources toward those middle managers. They are providing them with learning opportunities. They're teaching them how to be effective. They're helping to prioritize what's important and what's not important. They're setting expectations.
And most of importantly, Jerry, I believe they should be rewarding those middle managers in a way, uh, that that is not only, uh, [00:15:00] required but actually enhances and, and. Brings even more value through monetary rewards and recognition to those middle managers who are really learning how to navigate in the way that we talked about a little bit earlier.
Jerry: And so we, we talked about sort of, you know, balancing those odds and then there's a couple different angles that I would love to get your take on, which is. What if there's uncertainty and you don't know, right? And so maybe this, you know, there's rumors of, you know, reorgs or a different direction, or you're not sure what the future of the company holds.
And, and, and that is a different level of anxiety of the unknown rather than being in disagreement with, uh, uh, somebody else. What, what are some communication tools or strategies. And, and again, this is an, an impossible position for the middle manager of to stay positive and, you know, confident and leading. While they also might feel their own anxiety about their unknown [00:16:00] tomorrow.
Jim: There are three words that in my mind are not used enough in the leadership ranks, and those three words are really simple. They are, I don't know. It is so important to, to actually acknowledge with full transparency and the, the height of your communicative skills and capabilities when you don't know something.
The biggest mistake I see managers, particularly middle managers make, is trying to fake their way through knowing. Right. So that sense of transparency, that candid behavior, all of those types of things, and think about what that does, right? So, so you're an employee, you go to your boss or leader, that boss, or you ask them a very important question, at least it's important for you.
It could be about any of those things you mentioned about the future of the company or the future of the person asking the question or whatever. And the. You are looking for some broad, deep, know it all answer from your boss or supervisor and that [00:17:00] supervisor says to you, I don't know. Well, there, there are a couple ways to look at that.
One is I would follow up the, I don't know with the next phrase, which is, but I'll find out. Or I'll figure it out or, but I'll get back to you within 24 hours or, you know, whatever it is, so that I'm setting the expectation that I'm not a know-it-all type of person, but by golly where I don't have the answer, I'm going to go out and try to set the expectation to find one for you.
So it's just that sense of transparency and authenticity and genuineness. That goes so far, even if you don't know the answer or it's an answer that's negative, right? Meaning the employee didn't want to hear that specific answer when it's delivered in such a way with those characters of, of authenticity and, and things related to that.
Listen, that goes a long way toward building that credibility that we're all looking for. You know, I think of the parent child relationship sometimes, right? So. I'm the father of four Gen Zers, [00:18:00] right? Oh my goodness. Never a dull minute, right? I, I, whenever I need to really know something from my kids, I just text them, right?
Instead of having a conversation, uh, because that's through preferred communication style and methodology. And guess what? I, I can say no just as easily via text as I can in person. I can also say yes or affirm, give an affirmative answer just as easily in that manner. That doesn't devalue the response.
It might change the, the way that the questioner feels about the response, but it is a response. And so many times we try to hide negative or, or information that we believe will not be well received by the questioner. And honestly, I think that's a mistake. It's just, it's, it doesn't build any of those types of things which you need to have in place, like trust.
Whenever you are actually in a situation where you need someone to do something different or you need to them to respond urgently or quickly by, by just having that transparency, [00:19:00] you're, you're already a step ahead of, of the curve. So those middle managers, Jerry, to answer your question more briefly, that's what I think they should do.
They should focus on building that culture of trust. By being transparent, admitting when they don't know, uh, acknowledging both successes and failures, uh, be becoming a storyteller. You know, talking about their own li life's lived experiences, if that's such a thing. Maybe it's just their lived experiences, but talking about those things builds that genuineness that goes so much further, uh, in the communication relationship, uh, between a supervisor and a subordinate.
Jerry: You know, and, and I think what you're saying is so important because you know what's also changed is, is the average tenure that most people have at these organizations whether they stay in the same industry or not, which means that. Those relationships of trust that you build, whether they are, whether you are the manager or or the employee, they'll, they'll stay with you, right?
And so I think about the people that I've stayed in [00:20:00] touch with long after I've left an organization. it's because they treated me and the relationship was based on genuine care for me and, and not seeing me as a commodity or just a, a, a widget to get the, something done. Right. And so, and I think when you hear about people, uh, leaving organizations, it's because, oh, they treated me a certain way.
Like I was replaceable that I wasn't respected. And so, you know, I, I think a different angle to that advice too is think about the marathon of your careers and lives and, and not just that very moment, whether that is the, the challenge of, of course you have to keep the business a priority, but you know, also don't forget that these were human relationships or for the long run and, and you never know, and so many stories of people you used to work with or the person. You know, ended up hiring you as a client or all these things. Um, Jim, next question. You, uh, foreshadowed it Is that the way we talk about these things, right, about anxiety, about mental health, about even processing [00:21:00] information or how we view showing up authentically to work has changed and will always change based on generations. And so the world that you and I grew up in is different than the world that your kids will grow up. And I have kids younger than yours, and so there, there's been a lot of. Light banter, if you will, or generalization and, you know, making fun of different generations on how they react to things. Um, what what is universally acceptable is that we are talking about of more variety of things at work, including mental health, including things that outside work that impact us.
Long gone are the days of work versus home being so separate. Um. How can managers and, and leaders best, uh, prepare themselves if they are not in a certain generation or if they don't have people? their lives that can help them understand how different generations think. Um, without demonizing the other party, without making vast generalizations that ultimately [00:22:00] hurt, uh, the progress of things. And now, you know, uh, we used to call it Gen Z young people, and now they're not. They're in leadership roles. They're starting companies. They are starting to get to the levels of middle and senior leadership. And so, um, how do you balance that and what can leaders do? Listening to this conversation today.
To sort of level up their understanding of multi-generational leadership.
Jim: Tho that's a fantastic question and I think a lot about generations in the workplace and all of those types of things. And Jerry, a quick story before, before I answer your question. In the first 15 years of my career, I. Uh, the expectation was very much what you just described, uh, when you were setting up, uh, the question at hand, which was we were trained and taught a specific way of how we should relate to other people in the workplace.
There was a bright line or certainly a brighter line than exists today between. Those things that happen at home and those things that happen at work, there were other things that you [00:23:00] never talked about work. You know, you never talked about religion, you never talked about politics. You never talked about any of the other unspeakables.
Right? Which were, which were disallowed, you know, to be carried on, uh, in the workplace. So there was just a bright line in a, in a bright separation. But there, there was also an expectation during that time period that you would, uh, also be less of an empathetic leader because those rules and standards were in place.
Perhaps you didn't need to be as much of an empathetic leader because the rules were brighter, the lines were more distinguished, uh, and it was, it was more clear what was allowed and what was disallowed. Fast forward the next 15 years of my career where I have now, and I'm still doing it by the way, spending all my time trying to unlearn all of those things that I learned in the first 15 years of my career so I can continue to be an effective leader and hopefully a, an an effective role model for my team in my, in my organization.
So [00:24:00] there has to be in the, in the first place, this idea that you are open to learning. What, uh, are the benefits of managing or, or, or, or assuming some type of responsibility in the role that you're in today,
Jerry: Hmm.
Jim: you have to grasp that and understand that you don't know everything. And because you don't know everything, there are people around you who can teach you things that you don't know can round you out, can make you a, a, a better, uh, citizen of the, of the current workplace.
If you will. Um, and so many leaders and managers today don't really walk into a situation with that kind of a mindset in place.
Jerry: Hmm.
Jim: I, I encourage, uh, leaders to think about how those folks who are walking in the door are similar to them, but also dissimilar to them be that generational difference or gender difference or whatever other kind of difference we're, and actually grasp that difference as a [00:25:00] strategic advantage for you to become a better leader.
So you don't lead people who are between the ages of 20 and 25 the same way as you lead people who are between the ages of 45 and 55, but perhaps you do in the sense that you should be as empathetic, as open, as kind, as caring, and as directive and as purposeful as you need to be as well. I never subscribed to the, to any stereotypes of, of any generation.
Yes, there are things that are generally more observable about these people in any generation, including my own, but there are things particularly about young folks who are in the workplace today, which are incredibly fantastic. First of all, they are digital natives. There are things that they can teach every other generation that's more senior than them in the workplace about the value, the role of technology, and how it can be used to enable better work outcomes, more productivity, more effectiveness, more efficiency, [00:26:00] what have you.
The second thing is, and we know this not just. In my own home. But there are research studies that back this up that yes, the preferred methodology of communication is technological, right? So digital communication with folks who are younger in the workplace today, but when it's really important, they still wanna talk to you face to face.
And we as leaders, more seasoned leaders in the workplace need to grasp those opportunities because it's at that moment in time when we have the opportunity to tell our stories, to show our authenticity. To build that connectivity and that collaboration in ways that, because we're more senior, we're also more used to.
While not disregarding those, those capabilities and skills and preferred communication methods to those people who are likely younger, uh, in the workplace. And Jerry, my final part of this I'll just, uh, tell you about is organizations have to change the way they think about talent in the workplace today.
Yes, there's, there are, there [00:27:00] are more jobs than there are people available. There are more skills required than there are skilled people to fill those jobs. And that is changing even more rapidly now with the advent of, of technological advances in the workplace, particularly generative ai, that's not gonna change.
There's no situation with even the most advanced technology that's gonna fill that skills gap, uh, that's going to exist without impacting our broader global economic situation, let alone. Perhaps even to the level of, of, uh, domestic gross GDP in, in select countries throughout the world, including our own here in the United States.
So we have a once in a lifetime unique opportunity to capture all of the capabilities that exist across generations, across our workforce, across the beauty of the diversity, uh, that are, are the people that make up, uh, the environments in which we live and work today. We should not squander that. Instead, we should make it our goal [00:28:00] and our ambition to be after those things and realize the unique, important value that every human being brings into the workplace.
And it's true not everybody's gonna fit in every situation at any given point in time. And the quicker we as businesses and organizations are comfortable with the idea that we should be net exporters of talent and not net hoarders of talent.
Jerry: Hmm.
Jim: better we're go the the better off we're going to be because we'll build the infrastructure and the processes and the methodologies to make that a fact.
Because let's face it, you're right, those tenures are shorter. People are not gonna stay longer because we ask them to. They're going to stay longer because they feel valued and appreciated. And if there's something there in the tomorrow for them, and it's up to us as managers and leaders to build that case.
Jerry: Wonderful. Um, as we near the end of this conversation, I wanna ask you a very practical one, um, in, in a few weeks and, and maybe this will have passed depending on when you're listening to us. Um. You and I will join, [00:29:00] you know, 20,000 of our friends and, and colleagues and, and, and, and, uh, be in San Diego for SHRM 25. Um, you know, given the ways that we work and given the things that are changing, um, gathering in that place with many people across days of events and, uh, you know, education and learning what will also mean that people might be interacting with people with. Different values with different opinions, um, and maybe some people who haven't seen each other in a long time. You know, we're, we're asking people to come and learn together of course, but it's, you know, it's, particularly with all the things that are going on, um, through the lens of civility, um, what, what's the advice for, you know, maintaining civility in, you might pop into a circle conversation where somebody says something that you don't agree with, or, you know, it's. Happens in, in large group settings. Um, but this being SHRM 25, and obviously we want folks to have, uh, positive experiences, relationships, [00:30:00] and walk away with inspiration and education. Um, what, what do we want to tell our folks coming to San Diego with us soon on how to, uh, prepare and, and also react when, uh, you know, uh, so that we can all remain civil and friends at the end of the day?
Jim: Yeah, well just, just like in our society today, and I know, I know it's a little hard to believe that this is true, but civility is still the norm. And civility is still the expectation, and that that representation of civility is best shown through mutual respect. Understanding that the person who's speaking their opinion, you, it's not a requirement that you disagree with them.
In fact, it's a requirement that you listen to understand. And, and then third, I think the most important thing is that everyone comes to their beliefs, their opinions, their ideas, what they wish to vocalize, what they don't wish to vocalize through a set of circumstance, circumstances, and situations that led them to those conclusions.[00:31:00]
I never, and I encourage anyone attending our our conference coming up to ever assume that they understand where that person came from, what that person is living at that moment in time, and how those beliefs were formed by that person.
Jerry: right.
Jim: It only matters that when that person's expressing that opinion, whether we agree with it or not, that we give them the space to express that opinion.
That's. Called freedom of expression. That's what we do now. It has to be delivered without profanity. It has to be delivered within the rules of normalized society. But at the end of the day, we want people saying what it is that they, that they understand to be true. We can learn from that. We, we are, are not gonna set up a situation where we're gonna have people, you know, throwing rocks at each other.
We're just not, not going to do that. Instead, we're gonna set up situations where you may hear things and learn things, which you may not immediately agree with, but now you've been privileged to hear another perspective. [00:32:00] That in itself is civility. So let's, let's be respectful. Let's be kind, let's remember that everybody has a point of view, and let's give them the space and the opportunity to share that point of view within the boundaries of civilized society.
Jerry: Wonderful, uh, you know, words of, of wisdom and encouragement. Um, hopefully you're listening to us before San Diego and you're gonna join us and, uh, come up to us and say hello and we can have a wonderful, civilized discussion. Of course. Um, Jim, Jim, as we wrap here, um, you know, we've talked about a lot today and I think, you know, I myself am am walking away from this conversation with a little bit more knowledge, with a little bit more perspective and, and optimism, uh, as we, you know, navigate these and, and. You know, we say it too much, but unprecedented, unprecedented, uh, challenging times. Um, what is the one thing leaders can do today to build a more engaged, resilient, and workplace for tomorrow?
Jim: Yeah, get up from your [00:33:00] machine. Get up from your desk, get up from whatever it is that's holding you back, and go out there and engage in a civil conversation with a person that works with you and surprise them in what you ask them. Don't ask them how efficient they are today, how effective they are today.
Ask them how they're doing today, and then take the time to stand around and listen to the answer. It starts that simply.
Jerry: Wonderful. Well, Jim Link, uh, thank you so much for sharing your ideas, your wisdom, and your stories with us. Uh, looking forward to spending time with you and the rest of our 20 plus thousand best friends in San Diego shortly. And, uh, you know, I, I guess like we've talked about for the last half hour, you know, there's more that actually brings us together. There are more commonalities, more shared values and stories, and the only way to uncover, uh, what really seems to make us different is through conversation. And so thank you for joining me for this conversation on Tomorrowist Jim,
Jim: Thanks, Jerry. I.
[00:34:00]