Recent Supreme Court rulings and shifting employment laws are reshaping risk, compliance, and workforce strategy. From navigating high-impact cases like Ames v. Ohio Department of Youth Services to preparing for rising litigation and state-level regulations, this conversation with employment law expert Joe Beachboard breaks down what you need to know to protect your organization and lead with clarity in an era of legal uncertainty. In this episode, you’ll learn: - How recent Supreme Court decisions are reshaping labor relations, DEI, and retiree benefits. - Why HR and legal must break down silos to manage emerging risks like multi-state compliance and AI. - What leaders can do now to future-proof policies and prepare for the next wave of legal challenges.
Recent Supreme Court rulings and shifting employment laws are reshaping risk, compliance, and workforce strategy. From navigating high-impact cases like Ames v. Ohio Department of Youth Services to preparing for rising litigation and state-level regulations, this conversation with employment law expert Joe Beachboard breaks down what you need to know to protect your organization and lead with clarity in an era of legal uncertainty.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
Resources from this week’s episode -
SHRM employment law and compliance resources: https://www.shrm.org/topics-tools/employment-law-compliance
Subscribe to Tomorrowist to get the latest episodes, expert insights, and additional resources delivered straight to your inbox: https://shrm.co/voegyz
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Jerry: I'm Jerry Won. Welcome to Tomorrows. We're Explore the Trends, shaping the future of work. This week we're diving into one of the most complex topics shaping workplaces today, employment law. With recent Supreme Court rulings, redefining key aspects of workplace compliance, leaders are navigating an increasingly intricate legal landscape. As these shifts accelerate, how can organizations adapt and mitigate risk while continuing to foster inclusive workplaces? to
Joe: offer actionable strategies.
Jerry: on future proofing workplace policies is Joe BeachBoard. Concierge [00:01:00] employment attorney at Beach Port Consulting Group. Joe, welcome to Tomorrow list.
Joe: Uh, it's a real pleasure, Jerry. Thanks for having me.
Jerry: We're right
Joe: in the middle of 25.
Jerry: Employment Law. Um,
Joe: Easiest topic to talk.
Jerry: right?
Joe: Boy, there's plenty to say.
Jerry: when you
Joe: me say that There's, there, there's no end of the topics that we could cover in that area.
Jerry: And, and I will say at the top that by the time our audience li listens to this or watches this, that
not Much.
has changed or no other tectonic shifts have changed. Um, so I wanna frame this conversation,
not only talking about specific,
yes, we're gonna touch upon specific cases, but
also. I wanna make sure that
these ideas
and steps and strategies remain
a, a bit more evergreen.
so that leaders can use this maybe even a year from now.
Um, and so, but let's talk about some of the cases that.
you are talking about a lot with your clients and, uh, things that are keeping, uh, leaders awake at night. Um, there's been, and there will continue to be a lot of cases impacting workplace law. [00:02:00] what
are, some of the most
important ones that leaders should be paying attention to and that will impact them the most?
Joe: Well, there's so many, Jerry. There really is. And um, you know, I think you have to start though with the Supreme Court.
And, uh, the Supreme Court, even though the employment cases that were on the docket this year didn't get, perhaps the attention that they get in most years because there was so much attention focused on the court reacting to moves made by the administration.
But we had some very important, decisions including the ames versus Ohio, which is probably one of the ones that that was, that was on your list. And, and I think your approach though overall is the correct one, which is, yes, we need to think about these cases and sort of understand what they mean. But, but you have to consider 'em in the context of your overall strategy for both creating the kind of workforce that you want, uh, but also minimizing the legal risk.
and
those [00:03:00] aren't always exactly the same. You know, sometimes you have to take some risks to have a certain kind of a culture and, um, and, and other times you want to decrease the risk and at the expense of culture.
Jerry: So talk, speaking broadly and you know, Supreme Court rulings, uh, happen, there's injunctions, there's changing,
right? And then, so, and if we've seen anything, um, is that even decisions that we thought were forever or not so much forever, right? And so they can get revisited. And so from a overall strategy perspective. How should leaders think about the finality or the absoluteness of certain policies in shaping internal policies or creating legal strategies around things that are, as far as we know today, firm, and then also preparing some flexibility in case things change.
Joe: The most important word that you used there was flexibility, right? Uh, nothing set in stone. And there's constant change that's occurring in the employment [00:04:00] law area, both at the state and federal level. And I think the best tip that I try to provide to my clients anyways is don't overreact, right? Don't react to the headlines.
Um, be thoughtful. As to how you're going to respond to these particular situations as they occur. Generally, it's not as bad as it sounded whenever you heard about it on the news or read about it, uh, online. Uh, and there are strategies to deal with all of the issues and to take advantage of some of the positive rulings that have come down as well.
Jerry: Let's
go Back to Ames versus,
Joe: Yeah.
Jerry: Um, Ohio Department of Youth Services. Um, for those
Who may not be
as familiar,
give us the high level,
overview of what happened and what it means. Uh, and, and
here's sort of the context.
right? And so,
Uh, SHRM insights
reveal.
that over half of HR professionals believe this ruling and in the aims case, will impact labor and employee relations. [00:05:00] Nearly as many say that it could affect diversity and inclusion efforts that were ongoing in their organizations. And so give us a broad overview. What happened? What's been decided and how does it impact organizations?
Joe: Well, it's a very
interesting.
case. It involved an individual who believed that they were denied a promotion and subsequently demoted, uh, in order for the company to advance, uh, individuals of a different sexual orientation. So this person was a female, heterosexual claims that a gay individual and a lesbian individual got promotions over her or got her old job.
Because of their sexual orientation. And what had happened is that in some parts of the country, the courts, the federal appellate courts had established that individuals who fall into what they refer to as the majority, so in this case, majority being heterosexual. Had a higher burden to meet in order to bring a discrimination case, what they called the background circumstances test.
And [00:06:00] basically they said you have to show in order to successfully bring a claim, if you're a member of the majority, you have to show that your employer is the unusual organization that dem that would discriminate against individuals who are in the majority well. Some of the circuits had adopted that a lot of the circuits had, hadn't adopted that test.
For instance, we're here in California, in San Diego, uh, the ninth Circuit had not adopted that test. So when you think about, okay, the Supreme Court in that case said, no, it's the same standard for everyone sort of throughout the background circumstances test, and said that for these so-called reverse discrimination cases, the burden of proof is exactly the same as for the other cases.
Well, how does that affect the law in California? Well, not at all. How does it affect the law in Ohio? Dramatically, right? Because the, the law was different in both of those. So when I think people look at the law, the question about whether the change in the law impacts you will depend [00:07:00] on where you're located.
But what I, what I think will impact everyone, and this is something that I've seen in the 35 years that I've had the pleasure and honor of representing some of the greatest companies in the, in the country. Um, what I have seen. Is that media attention drives awareness, drives litigation, and so the attention that this case brought, I suspect, will result in increased litigation all across the country.
Even though their rights didn't change at all, say in California, I think we'll see more of these quote, reverse discrimination cases in California because people now have heard about this ruling and they assume, Hey look, I can bring a case too. So I think employers have to be prepared for that. And I think one of the most important things that they can do is think about how they analyze [00:08:00] risk situations.
We all, me too, looks at, let's say, a termination decision in many cases based on what are the protected categories of the individual that's affected, right? That's what we look at in assessing risk. I think we have to change that mindset now because the risk is the same for everybody, and maybe right now the risk might be greater for members of the majority.
'cause they're aware of this case and therefore may be more likely to, uh, bring suit. You mentioned DEI That's also an area. I don't think there's any question. There's gonna be more scrutiny of that now because combined with some of the pronouncements from the administration, it's clear that at least within that the administration and maybe within the Supreme Court, those principles are disfavored.
And so I think you're, you're, you're gonna have to see more litigation in that area.
Jerry: how do you balance and when you're advising your clients or, you know, providing advice on, on this topic, [00:09:00] the balance of reactionary measures versus preemptive measures, expecting things to even further swing on the pendulum. Or just being more protective, just 'cause we don't know where things are gonna land, particularly when it comes to, um, case defense.
Right. So if you, if you believe that there to be more cases coming for discrimination of all different types, is that something that, uh, leaders should be focused on protecting what is currently at risk? Or tell us about sort of how much preparedness, how much, you know, uh, should people be thinking about?
Joe: Well. Preparedness is a key, right? You, you can't just be focused on compliance. You have to be engaging in, I guess what I would call sort of proactive compliance, right? Which is you're complying, but you're also anticipating.
This is where HR plays a huge role, right? Because you mentioned overreacting.
Somebody hears about, you know, there's been an executive order that says this or that, or there's been this case ruling that's come down [00:10:00] from the Supreme Court that says this or that, and you can get a reaction from the leadership at the executive level of, oh my gosh,
you know,
the, the everything's changing.
We have to change. And it's the role of HR to. Calm the situation down and be able to explain why we don't want to overreact. We need to be thoughtful about it. We need to understand exactly what that development is, and then think about that in terms of what our policies, practices, and what our culture is.
Jerry: you know, there's, there's, I think it's also thinking about, um, maintaining the culture of the organization, staying steadfast and what you wanna represent, but also obviously legal risk is real risk. Right. And so,
uh,
Ongoing conversations with the HR team, with the legal team with. Other members of the executive team to make sure that that is both fluid, but also, you know, somewhat standing on, on the values that the company or the organization was founded upon.
And again, um, [00:11:00] hopefully by the time folks listen to this or are watching this, things aren't changed so dramatically,
Joe: Yes.
Jerry: change will happen.
Joe: Yes.
Jerry: cases will come ahead and laws will change. Um, there's another case. I I, I'd love to get your take on the Stanley versus City of Sanford.
which which impacted, um, uh, a DA protections for retirees. Um, again, tell us sort of the overview of that and then how does that, uh, impact how, uh, leaders prepare themselves for, for potentially other cases.
Joe: That's a, a fascinating case and actually one which
probably
goes in the category of a win for employers, which we don't often get to say. Uh, and this involved an individual, uh, who became disabled. Uh. While employed by the, as a firefighter, um, began to get retiree benefits while on disability. And then the, her former employer changed their plan and basically said, we're no longer going to [00:12:00] provide you with retiree benefits.
After a certain period of time, I think it was two years, um, she brought a lawsuit, said. That's a violation of the Americans With Disabilities Act title One of the Americans with Disabilities Act asserting that that reflected discrimination against disabled individuals. And the case went up to the US Supreme Court and um, the US Supreme Court said by the words of title one of the a DA, you're only covered by the statute if you're either seeking employment.
Or you are employed and can, can perform the essential functions of the job. Uh, since she was not seeking a job, was not employed in a position and because of her disability could not perform the essential functions of the job, somewhat ironically, she was not qualified for the protections of the disability statute.
For employers. What this means is you do have more flexibility in, in this area, and I've [00:13:00] seen a lot of people sort of touting this ruling as, as a significant victory, uh, for employers. And I'm not disputing that at all, and I'm not a benefits lawyer who would probably be able to tell you more. But what I do know enough to be concerned about is to think about, okay, I don't think this is a get outta jail free card, right?
Because we still have other statutes that might apply, like erisa. Federal statutes, we still have contract theories of liability, right? She might say that was part of the reason I came to work. There was this, and then you're now breaching, uh, our original agreement by taking these away and there may even be some state theories of, of, of liability that she might be able to pursue.
So even though this case, good result for employers, provides them with additional flexibility in terms of retiree benefits, uh. There's more that needs to be done before somebody just says, okay, we're gonna totally, uh, we're gonna totally change our retiree benefits
Jerry: The Supreme
Court recently weighed
on,
the future of nationwide [00:14:00] injunctions, uh, particularly against the, uh, the current administration. Um, again, take
us.
through a higher level overview of what the Injun injunctions were about and, and what the ramifications of the decisions are.
Joe: Well,
I'm gonna be honest with you, Jerry. Um, these nationwide injunctions have been a problem for a long time. Right. This is not a new problem. Uh, both sides have used them. Employers, as folks may recall, were successful in getting nationwide injunctions against the Biden administration's overtime rules.
Uh, they were able to get nationwide injunctions against some of the EEOC guidelines. Um, I remember working on the persuader regulations way back in the Obama administration, and we were able to get a nationwide injunction prohibiting the, uh, implementation of those rules. And in all of those cases,
alls you had to do was convince one judge in a jurisdiction you picked because you knew that judge was probably inclined favorably towards you, and you could bring a [00:15:00] policy to a complete and total stock.
So this has been an issue, uh, for a while. I don't think it's a, a surprise to me that they reach the result they do. I think it's unfortunate that it was in the case that it was in, because that's such an, um, you know, an emotional issue when we talk about birthright citizenship. And, um, and so I think, you know, people were saying, oh my gosh, they, you know, they've said, birthright, citizenship's gone.
I was like, no, no, no. That wasn't,
that wasn't the case at all. But, uh, you know, but. What they did hold was that no longer can, you know, an individual federal judge issue an injunction beyond the parties to the litigation in front of them. They indicated that Courts of appeal may be able to do that and certainly the Supreme Court, uh, could do that.
So I don't know that it's going to really radically change things. There's still, and there's, and they mentioned class actions. Of course that's an option, you know, and already. Some advocacy [00:16:00] groups have begun to file class actions to, to reim implement those, those, those temporary restraining orders. So I think there's gonna be, you know, I think that folks will figure out ways around it.
They usually, they, they usually, um, do, but, you know, it, it is a limitation and it does free up the administration to do a lot of the things that they've been saying they wanna do.
Jerry: you're an expert.
at this, and then as you mentioned, you've been doing this for three and a half decades and. Some of these
Topics and.
the how we interpret them, uh, come more easily to attorneys and people in the system. Um, many of our listeners and, and, and watchers audience members who maybe they are in HR or but just as a individual, um, are, are being bombarded with at a, at a record pace of not only news, but opinions of the decisions through how we consume news, where we consume news. So As we talk about these,
complex topics, particularly, you know, decisions by courts and the ramifications of it, you know, Joe,
you, you've been doing [00:17:00] this
for three and a half decades, and then these topics seem more familiar to you because this is your work
and, and Maybe.
some of our audience members who are in HR who are in legal, uh, the, these might be things that they have talked about for a long time. However, I, I can't imagine that everybody is as
knowledgeable or, um, you know, quick to understand what this actually means
and, And
and further
exacerbated
by.
how we consume.
news these days.
It's not only news that's factual and objective, it is somebody's opinion of how it is interpreted. And that's how what, you know, that's one of the challenges that social media brings us.
And not only what we consume, but how we consume it or through whom we consume. So what are your recommendations for folks who want to get objective, fact-based information about things that are happening so that they can make the best decision that is rooted in facts and um, not, and not based on opinions.
Joe: Yeah. And that's can be a challenge. I mean, you, you have to kind of cut through the clutter, right? Uh, and try to figure out in an efficient way what the [00:18:00] development is and what, and, and what it means as for that organization. Uh, and, and that can be a challenge. Know, of course, you know, I've been speaking at the National S RM conference for more than 25 years, and, and SHRM does a great job of getting out that information.
I mean, I read HR daily every day to just, you know, double check myself
as to what's going on. But finding reliable sources of information is critical because information is power and, um, HR professionals. They don't have the opportunity to spend as much time as I do reading the, you know, the decisions and, and, and contemplating what their ramifications are.
They need, they need somebody to be able to provide this information to them in a, in, in an effective way. And for, you know, some of our larger, um, organizations. I, I really think that's where HR and legal need to work better.
I, I just, you know, again, look, reflecting back on 35 years of doing this, I think too often they're, they're [00:19:00] siloed.
You know, legal has the understanding of what's going on and HR has the, the practical implementation strategies that are critical for the organization to be successful. And I just don't think HR and legal work together as much as they should because they bring different skills to the analysis of what's going on.
And there is so much going on when you start and you know, when you mentioned the nationwide in, you know. The law is gonna become radically fragmented because of that. I mean, there are ne bad things about nationwide injunctions, but one of the good things was at least it, there was a nationwide rule. Now you're gonna have a rule in California and a different rule in Ohio and a different rule in Texas, in, in theory.
And, um, you're gonna need your team
to be able to anticipate and respond to those without panicking. Right. And that's the, that's a, it's a big challenge.
Jerry: And, and I think, [00:20:00] you know, maybe a, a secondary order effect of these policies changing is how leaders think about where they operate. In terms of office locations, what rules apply and don't apply if they hire, uh, hybrid or remote workers from certain jurisdictions.
Right? And so it's not just the current state.
It does impact future strategy. Um, and, and let's talk about future strategy and, and from a different lens.
Uh, we, we talked about sort of overcorrection of, you know, or preemptive compliance. Um,
but how do leaders think about what should they be thinking?
about in making sure that they are not only responding to the things that are coming down right now, but things that are happening, but also future proofing their business in a smart way so that not every decision is a pure reaction.
Joe: Yeah, and that's an important skill. I mean, it really, it really is. I think sometimes HR professionals and leaders generally, they get overwhelmed with just performing their day-to-day. Duties and trying to react to the changes [00:21:00] that occur that they don't allow themselves the time to sit and contemplate and perhaps predict what the future might hold.
And that can be extremely valuable because you may make a lot of decisions based on, you know, how is the law developing, where is it gonna develop and where do we wanna be in, in, in light of that? You know, I've got clients, it's, it's funny, JR. I've got clients that say, you know, I want to be in California because, you know, there's, there's an abundance of talent and, you know, we, I agree with their, their views and their politics and whatever.
And then I've got other clients that said. We we're never gonna do business in California because their legal risks are too high. And, um, you know, it's crazy out there and, you know, and so different companies have different a approaches on this. And, and I think the critical thing is that you're reacting based on good information that you're deciding you wanna be in California or not be in California, whatever the state is.[00:22:00]
Um. Because of good information and you've allowed yourself the time to sit down and think about what is best for our company and what is best for our workers
Jerry: We don't have a crystal ball. I wish we did. Um. What
workplace
trends, whether they be, you know, um, that, that you foresee. So we've seen, as we mentioned earlier, DEI has shifted quite a bit. Uh, discrimination lawsuits has shifted and will continue to shift. That impacts a whole lot of other things. Um, what are some things that are not on the radars of everybody right now that perhaps should be as we look to the second half of 25 and beyond?
Joe: I guess it would hard be hard to describe AI as something that, uh, is not on everybody's radar, but it is certainly an issue from an employment law standpoint. I think everybody is considering and, and really not just from an employment law standpoint, but. From a tool standpoint, right, because it does bring tremendous benefits to HR practitioners, but you [00:23:00] also have to be concerned about the, about the risks as well.
I think privacy is the area, you know, workplace privacy, that, that we're probably gonna see the, the most in the way of developments. And what can make that really challenging for, um, HR professionals is that. Those types of developments are probably gonna occur at the state level, right? As will I, I suspect as will probably most employment law going forward, we're not gonna see a lot of federal law.
It's gonna be at, you know, at the state level. And so when we think about something like privacy, you're gonna have to consider, okay, what are the rules in California? What are the rules in, in Illinois, for instance, it has one of the most advanced biometric statutes in the country. And so, you know, if you're a multi-state employer, uh, and you're responsible for hr, it's a huge job.
It's a, and, and the nationwide injunctions ruling didn't make it any easier. It made it harder for hr. [00:24:00] Uh, so, you know, those are just a, a couple of topics, you know, wage and Hour continues to be, uh, in my world, a huge issue. You know, employers continue to make mistakes in terms of how they pay employees, not necessarily consistent with the laws of some of the states that they may have.
People in remote work is only made that worse because now people have employees all over the country and they don't know what the rules are and all these different and all the, uh, all these. They have employees in all these different states, um, all around the country, and they, uh, they don't necessarily know or comply with all the state laws.
And so that's become a, a big area a a as well. But if I had to pick one, I think I would say state law developments. It's not sexy, right? It's not sexy, but I think you're gonna continue to see the growth of employment law.
Is gonna occur at the state level and anticipating that, and then recognizing where do you have people and where is that change gonna occur?
That's gonna be a big job.
Jerry: You talked about
Ai.
and of course we can't talk [00:25:00] about the tomorrow of anything these days without AI
thinking, you know, or talking about how AI is gonna impact it. You know, there's been a, a evolving growth of AI agents, right? Uh, AI, that you can train to do a job based on predefined tasks or instructions. When you look at some of the marketing of these developers that are creating AI agent tools is AI does not take a day off,
Joe: Yes.
Jerry: right? We go down that rabbit hole and it also means that if an AI does the work, that it also reduces perhaps, or eliminates some of these legal risks that we've been talking about today. What,
What is the outlook?
there and is, you know, how seriously, uh, should leaders be thinking about how that evolution impacts their current workforce? And also legal risk.
Joe: Well, that's a great question and you've had some excellent guests on this show talking about, uh, AI and, and its capabilities. And I, I wouldn't presume to be able to comment on those other than to say, [00:26:00] I think we do have to look at HR as a tool, right? It does bring a lot of potential value to employers and may save a lot of costs and may eliminate some jobs a a along the way.
Of course, my responsibility usually ends up being trying to analyze what the, what the legal risks are in that area. And, and, and they're, they tend to be, you know, defined in certain areas, right? Like hiring tools and things like that where there, there, there might, there might be potential legal issues associated with their use.
But, you know, it's a fascinating question about what is the future of the workplace gonna be in an, in an AI world. There was a. It's a fascinating bill that just got introduced here in the, in, in the California legislature called the No Robo Bosses Bill. And what it says is that you can't use AI to manage employees, so they can't be responsible for hiring or firing [00:27:00] or performance reviews and all this.
And it says in the statute, which I, or the proposed statute, it's a bill, uh, that I thought was fascinating. It said, uh. Let's not take the human out of human resources. So, you know, you're seeing a lot of this stuff kind of stuff going on out, out there. And, um, you know, when you think about ai, so there's this, this, this proposed legislation in California.
You know, there's reports that the big beautiful bill has a measure included in it that says states can't pass any ai. Legislation for 10 years. So how's that gonna all affect? I mean, there's so much going on in, in a, in AI right now, and I think us as lawyers and and practitioners, HR people are just, you know, trying to keep our head above water.
Jerry: We
don't know the answers
to a lot of the questions that maybe our audiences has, but one thing that I think we can all agree on is that it is complex. Now, it's only gonna get more complex.
Joe: a hundred percent.
Jerry: how how can.
technology help us make sense of the, the clutter and the every evolving. [00:28:00] Complexity of the things that leaders have to pay attention to,
Joe: Well, you know, AI can be a great tool, right? For, for answering questions, for managing difficult projects, for saving time in certain ways, for, uh, tracking leave. I mean, there's all kinds of things that are the types of tasks. Experienced HR professionals don't really need to be doing. And I think it's, it's making sure that you're, that you're harnessing those tools, minimizing the risk where we, where we know it lies.
Um, and, and using it to your, your advantage. You, uh, you can't be afraid of ai, uh, but you can't also just adopt it without, without being careful. Just like.
You know, the hallucinations or whatever, right? You can, you can use it as a tool, but you have to realize that it has, that it has limitations. Um, [00:29:00] and so much go back to the California bill.
You know, so much about human, in human resources or in any workplace is, is critical. I don't think, I don't think we're ever gonna take that out. So I, I don't, I don't think human resources is going away. I think human resources can actually, through using AI, become a, a, a better and more important partner in most organizations
Jerry: Given all that's going on in our world and the world at large, I'm sure you're a very busy person these days with.
Leaders at, at the CEO and CHR level calling your advice on a, a variety of things, uh, to better, to best prepare them for what's ahead tomorrow. Uh, what is the best advice that you are giving them today?
Joe: Well,
it's a great question and I think the, the most helpful suggestion I have had, uh, and we were [00:30:00] just talking about this, uh, last week with one of my larger, um, organization clients, was. I think with all of this that's going on, you need a, you know, workforce, legal team, response team, right? You need to be drawing in HR and legal, like we said earlier, partnering better,
but also you need to get your leaders.
If you have leaders on d and i. You need to have, technology needs to be in involved in this as well. Operations needs to be involved and you really need to, in my view, approach these legal risks and opportunities, um, as a collective and bring your best people together and, and create these sort of rapid response task force.
Um, that can deal with these issues. 'cause no one person can not, not for an organization of any, any size. No one person can, and if one person tries, [00:31:00] they're probably gonna fail because if you're a lawyer, you don't necessarily have. The, the implementation, hr, IM implementation skills. If you're hr, you don't have the legal analyses.
If you're in d and i, you, you know, you may not understand or have access to all the knowledge about what's happening and how it affects things. Everybody needs to to work together. And so my best suggestion has been you need to put a team together and you need to show as an organization that this team is important and empowered to be able to help you succeed in the future.
Jerry: awesome. Well, thank you so much for your, uh, spending your time and, and sharing your wisdom, knowledge, and expertise with us, Joe. Um, you know, I, I think as you mentioned, it's gonna, you know, it's not gonna get any easier. It's not gonna get any more clear going forward, but. Having people like you on, on Folks team, and then getting the advice that we need, uh, hopefully HR leaders can help, uh, better navigate the, uh, the waters ahead.
So thank you for your time today.
Joe: I appreciate the opportunity. It's been great spending some time with you.
Jerry: Alright, thanks for [00:32:00] joining us on Tomorrow List.