Caregiving takes many forms — childcare, eldercare, spousal support — but not all are equally acknowledged in the workplace. On this episode of Tomorrowist, host Jerry Won sits down with Tamla Oates-Forney, CEO of SHRM Linkage, to examine the disproportionate burden of caregiving and its impact on careers, especially for women. Drawing from her own experiences as both a CEO and caregiver, Oates-Forney discusses actionable strategies for leaders to foster a culture of accountability, flexibility, and support that empowers all types of caregivers in the workforce. In this episode, you’ll learn: - Why caregiving bias persists in workplace policies and culture - How different types of care are treated unequally — and why it matters - The one thing leaders can do tomorrow to create more supportive, flexible work environments
Caregiving takes many forms — childcare, eldercare, spousal support — but not all are equally acknowledged in the workplace.
On this episode of Tomorrowist, host Jerry Won sits down with Tamla Oates-Forney, CEO of SHRM Linkage, to examine the disproportionate burden of caregiving and its impact on careers, especially for women. Drawing from her own experiences as both a CEO and caregiver, Oates-Forney discusses actionable strategies for leaders to foster a culture of accountability, flexibility, and support that empowers all types of caregivers in the workforce.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
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Jerry: I'm Jerry Won and welcome to this week's episode of Tomorrowist Today. Caregiving responsibilities fall disproportionately on women not all caregiving is treated equally. Uh, for example, there's a difference between how parenting versus elder care or supporting extended families treated in the workplace. So then we need to talk more about how this impacts women's career trajectories. different people and the circumstances in which they become caregivers are treated differently, across different opportunities or different circumstances. And let's also talk about how caregiving bias shows up in the [00:01:00] workplace, policies, leadership, decisions, and culture. help us unpack all of this is Tamela Oates-Forney. CEO of SHRM linkage and somebody who's been in the HR space for multi-decade, so is an expert in both the policy side and as somebody who is also going through caregiving herself.
Tamla, welcome to Tomorrowist.
Tamla: Thank you so much, Jerry. I gotta tell you, when you said multi-decade, I'm like, oh my gosh, it has been multiple decades.
Jerry: the intent, but that just gives you credibility into knowing you, we, we've all been on both sides of this,
Tamla: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Jerry: and as we are often called this sort of sandwich generation of having to care for our parents and the elders in our lives also at the same time, for not all, but many of us who choose to have children you know, that it's, it's a discussion that isn't often had. And so we know this because we experience this, you
know, caregiving is just a natural part of human evolution. But it's not something that we. Talk about than we should, terms of [00:02:00] how this impacts both work-life balance, but also trajectory and the careers that people get to choose how high they can ascend and what sort of care and, and balance we should be giving and then talking about.
And so let's start with sort of the foundation understanding of what caregiving is and, and sort of how this has evolved in the workplace. a caregiving, obviously caring for somebody else in your
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: Um. It Can be at birth, it can be through adoption, it can be through sickness. It can be through somebody who is directly related to your extended family. And so we use this term caregiving to sort of put everything under the same umbrella. But let's talk about the different types of caregiving first and what tends to be more recognized in the workplace. And then the secondary question, which we can talk more about is sort of how sometimes gender plays a role in how different people get, giving, get access to
Tamla: Mm-hmm.[00:03:00]
Jerry: Help. And so for me, the biggest difference that I experienced was as a father, how companies and how organizations talk about maternity leave and paternity leave a little bit differently, but it's deeper than that. So let's set the tone on sort of what caregiving is and how different types of caregiving are currently accommodated or recognized in the workplace today.
Tamla: Jerry, this conversation is so very timely, especially even in my life. I have been in the workplace for over 30 years. I am the mother of two children, both of Gen Zs. Uh, I have a 26-year-old daughter, a 16-year-old son who was adopted, and then now I have recently moved back to my home state of North Carolina.
To help care for my mother who is ailing. And so I have a 16-year-old and a 70 plus year old mom that I am. You know, responsible for helping care for. And traditionally, in the past, caregiving was only thought of, [00:04:00] of is childcare. You know, you're, you're out to care for your child, be it adopted or naturally born child.
But now, as you've noted care caregiving is just so much more than that. And it includes your parents, could be extended family members as well as your children. And oftentimes that caregiving responsibility falls on the women in the workplace. And not to say that men don't do that. I think about, again, my life.
There are three children. My mother has three children. I have a sister, a younger sister, and an older brother. And ever since my mother has been ill, it has. Primarily been my sister who has cared for her. And I live so far away, so my support came in the form of financial assistance, but my sister was carrying the burden, if you will, of caring for her, taking her to her doctor's appointments and things [00:05:00] of that nature.
So much so that it really impacted her mental wellbeing, right? Because it beco it had become so much, and that was one of the reasons why I decided. To move back home so that I could share in the burden of, and I hate to say it's a burden, but caring for an ailing parent, it is burdensome. Even though we are blessed to be able to do so.
It is really, really hard. And now where I used to be the furthest away from her, I am the closest. To her at home. And that responsibility now has now been shared amongst me and my sister, to make sure that our mother is taken care of and it's because she does not want and refuses to leave her home.
So she lives by herself. I. She lives by herself and she doesn't want to go live in any assistant community or anything like that because her mother passed away in a nursing home facility. [00:06:00] And in her mind she thinks that is very similar. And if she went to do something like that, that she would also succumb.
And so dealing with that has been personally a challenge. So I can only imagine, and I'm empathetic to employees that are in the workplace that are facing very similar circumstances.
Jerry: Oh, thank you so much, Tamla, for sharing your story.
Tamla: Mm.
Jerry: um I'm, I'm in a similar boat with a parent who needs extra care,
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: everything. It has, you know put a significant burden on the other parent, it's just my brother and me. it's also the, the nuance, and I guess the, the context here too is depending on the cultural expectations
Tamla: Yeah. Yeah.
Jerry: Phil duty, the, know commonplace acceptance or adoption of, uh, nursing homes and other skilled care facilities and the desire for the person to want
[00:07:00] that. Let's also add in the complexity of navigating the American healthcare system. To understand what some folks are entitled to, what we are not, who pays for what. Uh, these are all things that. Uh, nobody an expert at or maybe some people, but very, the overall majority of folks dealing with it are not.
And in addition to, as you mentioned there are other things that we are, you know burdened with and like, I think you put it, you know so beautifully. It is both a gift and a burden.
Tamla: Yeah. Yeah.
Jerry: especially in the workplace, we, we don't talk about it because we do talk about it or, or there's this perception that talking about something that brings you down or additional weight on your plate, I. Gives sort off certain perceptions of not being focused or not being dedicated to the workplace. but the biggest discrepancy that we see when we talk about caregiving is the gender [00:08:00] imbalance.
Uh, both the expectation that it is far more women, and this is data backed, this is not just my opinion,
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: that the data shows that women disproportionately shoulder this responsibility. Not only that, but they are expected to
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: that they also have. Been given more access to caregiving leave or caregiving accommodation in the workplace, most notably through childbirth or even adoption. And this differentiation that I think some organizations use of primary or secondary caregiving. And so I remember when my child was born, there was the option to either choose primary or secondary. And it was just sort of understood in the organization that if you're the dad, you're automatically the secondary. I said, no, I am primarily caring for both my wife who just had a child a child.
And so, you know what, it was the expectation, especially amongst you know, to be frank, some of the men in the organization is why would you choose that?
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: you choosing [00:09:00] to take more time off? And there's, so there's, it's, it's so nuanced and, and so multilayered this discussion of both expectation and access. Um. From your expert opinion, somebody who's been in the HR space, and obviously now as somebody who is going through this, why does that imbalance persist even though much discussion has been had about equality and equity in the workplace as far as how we treat you know, all types of people, but why is this this imbalance persists when it comes to caregiving?
Tamla: You know, I think it began with the, with the beginning of time in terms of gender roles that were kind of defined. You know, as early as life began itself women have typically been the most maternal, caring, the ones that we're supposed to do kind of the caring, for the family while the men traditionally went out to work.
So I think it stems from [00:10:00] the beginning of time, and I think it's, it's just trends. Send it to where we are today. But that is changing because I think there is an increased awareness in terms of kinda what is needed and why and people like you speaking up in terms of it being un. Fair a lack of fairness, in terms of how different policies and procedures and practices are being applied.
And so I think the more we start talking about it and communicating what the needs are, you'll continue to see that evolution of policies, procedures, practices and benefits and things of that nature, right? So, and it is changing, before it used to be. When, when women had children, it was just maternity leave until men start speaking up and saying, Hey, it's my child as well and I too want to be home, to provide care for my child as well as my spouse during this very [00:11:00] critical time in our life.
Right. And I think had men not start speaking up regarding what their needs were. That policy probably would not have changed. So it is incumbent upon us, all of us, to make sure that we communicate what our needs are and be a part of the change that we want to see. And I think now that we are also now talking about caregiving and the, the impact that it has on one's ability to show up, in ways and moments that matter in the workplace.
You know, based on the commitments they have both planned and unplanned at home, those things are real. And the more people talk about it, the more awareness we bring to it and the more support we get to manage our way through it. And so I, I'm, I'm glad these conversations are taking place because these are conversations that need to happen.
Uh, I, I think these things have been going on for some time. But people were just kind of [00:12:00] compartmentalizing compartmentalizing their lives and just doing what they needed to do in order to show up and not wanting people to view them differently because they had responsibilities outside of the workplace that could have prevented them from.
Ascending or matriculating in the workplace because they had or perceived to have had conflicting responsibility. So things are evolving. It is now become a topic of conversation in the workplace because now there is an awareness, and I think awareness equals accountability for there's something to be done about it.
Jerry: We know this from data.
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: this from anecdotal stories of the women in our lives, particularly,
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: of my friends and colleagues and all of us have heard from women particularly. their twenties and thirties who say, Hey, I'm going to wait to have children because I want to make sure that I can capitalize on the opportunity that I have. And, and the sad reality is that that is just a reflection [00:13:00] of how others have been treated. And therefore they believe that taking a step away, whether it is through direct absence, through maternity leave, or indirect changes in their lifestyle as it pertains to having children will hurt them. And yet we don't make the same assumptions Or how often do we hear men talk about that? I'm not going to start a family because it doesn't, does that unequal. use a neutral term. There are unequal caregiving responsibilities and the expectations. does that impact women's professional trajectories? Uh, both in sort of the traditional sense and even the ability to take risks as entrepreneurs or, or things that are more in the solo space, because that also comes with risk and the additional addition of burden, responsibility, time, all those things.
Tamla: Well, let me tell you again, I like to, to use my personal stories and examples to kind of illustrate points of view so it's not [00:14:00] something that's so abstract that people don't understand. I remember when I was coming through up through corporate America, and, and this is the same for men and women.
I was told that your. Promotability is directly aligned to your mobility, meaning that if you want to grow and evolve and advance within this organization, you have to avail yourselves to the opportunities wherever they are and whenever they come. Right. And so, and that was true. And so we, we know that when you decide to either get married and or have children, and more so the latter than the latter have children that that requires.
You to take a step back you know, in some cases so that you can deliver the child so you may not be able to move and go and do things that you could normally do, where you're not a parent because you have now another responsibility that you have to, to be [00:15:00] responsible for. But you know, you have to be strategic and methodical and time, time your childbirth at the right time.
That's not going to prevent you. From being away and missing out on an opportunity. When you have a child, when a woman has a baby, they are typically out for six weeks at a minim up to eight to 12. Right. And a lot of things can happen between six and 12 weeks in the workplace. And so you are thinking as you're planning your career, can I afford to be out for six to 12 weeks, be for fear that I'm going to miss out on an opportunity to advance.
Those are things that I too thought about when I was in my childbearing years because we know that our OnRamp into the workplace and our off ramp because of child childbearing is different. It is different. Our anatomys are different. Like men versus women, [00:16:00] they are different.
Not saying that men don't take time off when there is a child involved, but the last I checked, there are no men having babies, you know? So, that is unique to the female and you have to be methodical, especially again, when I was coming up in the ranks. When is the right time for us to have children?
Based on the fact that I have some professional aspirational goals that I want to achieve, and I know that if I decide, or if I had decided to have a child at a certain age that might've prevented me or hindered. I would say, or delayed. So a delay is not a denial, but it could have been a delay. And so I think women are right, wrong, or indifferent.
We have to be more strategic in terms of when we decide to both get married. And secondly, to have children, probably more importantly, to have children because we know that it's going to require some time away from the workplace. And even when you [00:17:00] are in. You are nine months of pregnancy, that could go really good.
And sometimes people have a difficult time. So much so that in my case, in in in point, I had my child at 31 weeks and so that was nine weeks before and she was born prematurely. And so not only was I out the six to 12 weeks post childbirth, I had her early. So I was out even longer because my child was born premature.
And so you can't really anticipate. What that child birth process is going to be like. So that is something that is, really scary,
Jerry: Sure.
Tamla: also very real in terms of planning for your career, if that makes sense.
Jerry: It does make a lot of
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: you know, I think our, most of our audience, they're probably thinking not just from what you've shared
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: perspective, but they're likely thinking about the people in their lives or
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: themselves, that have had [00:18:00] to make uh, really challenging decisions on. Family formation on where you get to live as is in your case
Tamla: Yeah.
Jerry: having to physically relocate. Um we live in a world now where it is more remote friendly,
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: it may not be.
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: think that as the world is more globalized, some of us have parents and extended families in different parts of not only the country but the world. Um. And so these are really complex and, and yet real challenges that everyday employees face and employers face because if you want to retain and attract the best talent, do you balance accommodating both from a regulatory perspective but also from a non-regulatory perspective of sometimes doing right by your people so that they come and stay with you. All, all these things are, are almost impossible to
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: and then [00:19:00] circumstantially different depending on the time of day even. How, how do leaders think of, how can leaders think about providing both the, uh. Business friendly or business first priority decisions when it comes to leave,
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: accommodations and also doing right by its people. How have you seen that play out in 2025 and also the evolution of that, and then how are we, how do you see that evolving continually as we look forward to the future?
Tamla: I, I think flexibility and adaptability, both for the employee and the employer are gonna be critical in these times. So understanding. Kind of what is required for the job, and then also having a, a conversation with your workforce in terms of if they want to get to this point, maybe some of the sacrifices they.
May have to make, but then as an employer, what are the accommodations you can make in order [00:20:00] to, be more flexible and accommodating? Right? And so I think these conversations really need to happen, regarding that. And I, I would say as you ascend to the top of uh, being a leader, if you, if you aspiration is to be an executive leader, being an executive leader is going to be.
It comes, comes with its challenges just in the, in, in and of itself, in the job. So there are some things there, there are rules of engagement. These are hard, they, they're hard jobs to have and it's gonna be hard for a man and hard for a woman. But they become exponentially harder for women when they have.
You know, things that we've talked about, other responsibilities that may prevent them from maybe showing up the way that those that don't have the same level of responsibility show up. So, being com communicating that I may not be able to be here physically during this time, but I will get the job done because I have multiple responsibilities, you know what I'm saying?
So communicating [00:21:00] kind of what you need, how, how best you can work, and how. How you work may look different despite the fact that it is different, but your output and your outcome and your contributions to the organizations are not going to suffer. And so I think, again, flexibility, adaptability, communicating kind of the rules of engagement and, and really seeking to pro provide support in an organization that can be accommodating of differences.
Without compromising or jeopardizing the impact on the business. And, and I think when you talk about these things I, I think you'll be surprised as to what you can accomplish. And again, I have another story to tell about that. You know, I made a decision, I. To move home at this phase in my life.
I retired as a CHRO and I knew that I needed to be home because I needed to come home to help my sister, who was caring for my mom, who had been carrying, carrying this burden. I was [00:22:00] away. I've been gone for a long time, and I said to myself, and I said to my family, we're moving home, and my husband was aligned with that.
And if I were to go back into the workplace. Here would be the things that would have to be true. And one of those things would be that I could still remain in North Carolina, but travel and work remotely and be where I needed to be when I needed to be there because I needed to be here for my mom. And I mean, and SHRM was able to accommodate that, but they wouldn't have been able to accommodate if they didn't know.
So I had to declare what my needs were. And to have that conversation, a real conversation with them in terms of what would have to be true in order for me to do this job. And they said, yes, and I'm not sacrificing or sacrificing, getting the job done. I'm, it just looks different in terms of how I'm able to do it.
So you would be surprised as an employee how [00:23:00] accommodating your employer. Will be if you're able to articulate the why, and also show that because you may have to work differently doesn't mean that you're not working or getting the job done. Does that make sense?
Jerry: point. Of course it does and
Tamla: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Jerry: because. Where you are in your career
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: I am in my career, it comes with a little bit of privilege based on our seniority,
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: of how the rules are, how things play out. Oftentimes the people who don't ask are, are junior
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: The ones who are so this circumstance for you is because of your mother
Tamla: Yeah.
Jerry: in mine. But a lot of times when we hear the studies and all the anecdotal
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: younger women moms choosing not to have children or delaying it or shielding that away from their employer because of the perception that it could
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: they are also the most hesitant or reluctant to make these asks for accommodation. And so [00:24:00] what is your advice? the younger leaders in our organizations and also the managers of those leaders, can we be doing to be better allies, whether both
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: men or women, to make sure that they feel that they are being supported and not the, not that they have to make their life decisions around the work,
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: in balance.
Tamla: a couple things I would say. So I, I was taught that until you're able to change the rules, you gotta play by them. And so I, I wasn't always at this place, right? So when I was younger in my career, I had to be more accommodating for what the company required if I wanted to ascend, right?
And so now that I'm at this place, and to your point, like I have a bit more level of flexibility, to, to say no and, and to be okay if it doesn't work out right. I. I will tell you that this generation that's coming into the workforce today, they're not afraid to declare what they need and what they want.
[00:25:00] Right? So they are not afraid to ask for. You know, whatever they need in order to survive and thrive in an organization. So that is changing. I will tell you, I just think in your career there are going to be trade offs, no matter what level. You are in an organization, you could be entering the workplace, a new manager, new leader, executive leader, executive manager.
At every stage in your career, there will be trade-offs and you, and only you can decide. What trade-offs are you willing to make and when nothing is going to be perfect and it's gonna be give and take. On both the employees and the employer side. And so understanding that, will go a long way. So I think the other thing I would say is if, if you look at kind of the workplace right now and how things are shaping up in the workforce.
So workforce, I talk about this often, workforce participation rates [00:26:00] are declining. I would say that the labor force. Is shrinking. We are retiring more people than that are entering the workplace, and there are a lot of skills gaps. So companies are seeking to figure out how, because of these things, how do I optimize the talent that I have within my organization?
And if you're finding that. And you know, going from suboptimal to optimizing your talent may require you to be more flexible. Then you'll probably do that because again, we are at a place and a point in time where everyone in our organization, we want them to be able to contribute and succeed and have the maximum output as they can based on the things that I mentioned in terms of labor and the workforce and things of that nature.
So I think companies. Are becoming more accommodating to a, to a degree, if it means getting more out [00:27:00] of their employees that are in the workplace. So I do think things are evolving, but it's a give and take and it's gonna be give for the company and give for the employee. But at the end of the day, you, as the employee, only you can decide the trade-offs that you're going to have to make or that you're willing to make because there will be trade-offs.
Jerry: Sure.
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: this is a, such a great conversation to
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: you know, we're not. Going to solve these problems here
Tamla: Yeah.
Jerry: the limited time that we have, but certainly we hope that for our audience regardless of where you are in organization, that it sparks some thought.
Tamla: Yes.
Jerry: you know, we, we talked a lot about childbirth, which is for, for more times than not, something voluntary that somebody chooses to go
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: The other side of caregiving as, as we've noted on this conversation, are involuntary. Somebody gets sick, somebody gets
Tamla: That's right.
Jerry: or we get sick ourselves.
Tamla: That's right.
Jerry: and our ability to show up is impacted.
Tamla: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Jerry: how can organizations [00:28:00] prepare both from a training and development perspective, but also from a cultural perspective to make sure that all types of caregiving are one talked about, recognized and treated more equally than it seems to have been throughout history.
Tamla: I think engaging in conversations like this, seeking to understand what's going on and what they can do in the realm of their responsibility to make life work the workplace more accommodating for people who have broader responsibilities. I would say not everyone in your organization. Are going to be caregiving to children, right?
They could be caregiving to parents, but it is still caregiving and it takes away from their ability to be 100% in the workplace. And so providing flexible, um flexible scheduling or and if you do, I would say if you provide benefits that are, for childcare, [00:29:00] consider doing it for.
Elderly care. You know, that's a, that's something that's on the rise. And because there's more than just one definition of caregiving these days, and it is taking on a life of its own. And so just figuring out what you can do as an employer, I. To provide an ecosystem of support, within your organization that will enable you to support your employees and, and enable them to maximize their output into the organization.
Because again, if people stop having children, which is why we have more people retiring, then we are entering the workplace. We're not gonna have enough people to do the work. So, but, but people still elect not to have kids, but that doesn't mean that they don't have other caregiving responsibilities.
So also honor that, that their caregiving is broader than, than just childcare. And make sure that your, policies, procedures, practices, and your benefit offerings reflect the evolution of caregiving and can be more [00:30:00] accommodating to the workforce that needs it.
Jerry: One thing I I'd like to add too is I think this notion that caregiving. Whether it is through childbirth, through adoption, through different care, elder care, even uh, your own, there's no
Tamla: Yeah.
Jerry: You may go through an actual time of caregiving,
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: have impact. Physically, emotionally, psychologically, and it does impact how we show up to work,
Tamla: That's right.
Jerry: supported. If you go through a a caregiving experience and you
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: that does change how you show up to work the next day.
Tamla: I, I agree.
Jerry: And so I think it's thinking about not what is policy, not what is, again, we can't have the unchecked it's the right thing to do, so
Tamla: Yes.
Jerry: conversation either because of business priorities, but how do you balance that?
And at the end of the day, I. How you want to, how do [00:31:00] you want to, as a leader, show up for somebody? How do you want the organization and your peers and your leaders to show up for you? I, I think those are really parts of the conversation that we need to continue to have. And as you mentioned, next generation coming up, the Gen Zs and the Gen Alphas, there seems to be a little bit more ability, confidence,
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: if you will, to. Uh, have these conversations to ask the challenging questions of the organizations to say, Hey, this is my reality. How are we going to partner in this so that I can contribute to your organization's success and you can care for me? I'm grateful that we are moving in that direction. Even for you to join us today, To talk about this and to be vulnerable yourself and open up about your personal story, I think is a, a sign a very. Promising and optimistic sign of the time so that we can,
Tamla: Agree.
Jerry: you, you and I will probably remember a time where you don't talk about anything personal at [00:32:00] work
Tamla: That's right.
Jerry: It's not appropriate, it's not professional.
And sadly, we genuinely believe that it would inhibit our professionalist professional, um ascend at work because it was seen as a weakness. How are we going to support her or support him if. Their focus is clouded. And so I'm, I'm so grateful that we get to have this conversation.
Tamla.
a as you as we wrap
Jerry: this conversation, what is the one thing that organizations and its leaders can do tomorrow to begin the, to to begin to level the playing field for all caregivers, especially women with, without waiting for a full policy overhaul.
Tamla: I think just seek to understand, get to know your people, understand what they're going through, what they need, and try to be one empathetic and accommodating because when you show up for, people in moments that matter. They'll show up for you. And I, I just [00:33:00] believe in that. I sometimes, I think we over-engineer these things.
People are people and they want to be able to add value and they want to feel valued. And when you lead from a place of empathy, I think they feel that way. And, and that's why I share so much of my personal story because I want my team to know that I hear you. I see you. I understand. and and what can we do to help each other?
Because I'm going through the same things that you're going through. Sometimes they think that as executive leaders, we are immune to all these things, but we are going through those things just like they are. And when you talk about it, it creates the space for dialogue to share what is needed in order for them to be at their best.
Right. And so I am. I, I'm privileged to be a part of this conversation. I think it's conversations we're, we're gonna continue to need to have because it's not going anywhere. And so the sooner we're able to talk about it and, and, and help co-create solutions for it, the better off we'll be.
Jerry: [00:34:00] I will say that I think for leaders who feel a little hesitant to talk about as a objective talking point, or even as a subjective personal story, who feel a little hesitant because of what will they think,
Tamla: Mm-hmm.
Jerry: uh, if it's any encouragement, I ask you to lean into your intuition to be empathetic as tamela encouraged. And, and judge the response of your organization and your people not through public response. But look at the people that will email you, call you, text you, message you in private thanking you because that leadership model or that modeling of the leadership to talk about it will mean so much for people who don't feel that they have enough political capital, organizational capital or privilege to be able to ask for these things.
And so again we are not where we need to be. We are not where we want to be when it comes to the topic of caregiving, the balance of [00:35:00] how we treat. Types of caregiving, the types of caregivers, but. Just by me having this conversation, the fact that we can now put this into the universe, giving some folks a little bit more comfort and permission to talk about this, is a very encouraging
Tamla: Yeah.
Jerry: uh feeling that we have.
And so Tamla, thank you so much for, for your leadership both at SHRM Linkage and also just in your daily actions to model the behavior that we wanna see in organizations. Tamela os Forney, CEO of SHRM Linkage. Thank you for joining us
Tamla: Thank you so much for having me. It's been great.